Ashley: Taktsoft Campus Podcast! Willkommen zurück, schön, dass ihr wieder dabei seid! Im CMS Umfeld hört man heutzutage viele neue Begriffe wie "decoupled" und "Headless". Was bedeuten diese Begriffe? Welche Technologien stehen dahinter? Und vor allen Dingen was bringen headless CMS Systeme gegenüber herkömmlicher Systeme? Heute rede ich mit Knut Melwær, Head of Developer Relations bei Zanity.io. Früher war Knut Senior Technology Consultant bei NetLife , ein renommiertes, norwegisches UX und Design Agency. Er gibt einen Einblick in die Veränderungen im CMS Umfeld und welche Vorteile solche Änderungen mit sich bringen. Bei diesem Podcast werden wir das Gespräch auf Englisch führen. Ich freue mich auf das Gespräch mit ihm und wie immer, wenn Ihr Themen habt, die ihr gern in einem Podcast beleuchtet haben möchte. Schick uns eine Email an Podcastƒ@taktsoft.com. 
Ashley: Ja. Hi, Knut. Good to see you! 
Knut: Hallo? GOod to be here! 
Ashley: Ja. Thanks very much. Making time to talk this we have a very interesting topic today all around Headless CMS IS our maybe not just the CMS is other things that I am a hearing hearing about from you so you were here on the marketplace Headless CMS decouple systems and so on my first question me if we talk about anything around the technology. Why is there I need for a change in space like this is a change in a business context digital transformation was like that the driver independent all of the technology What's when the driver behind son of change. 
Knut: I think perhabs you say it like digital transformation why every company is starting become somebody of a software company null items It's a brot general session, but it's count of try and with that you got both expactations like you are supposed to the a digital experience if we know you sell physical good the bear of those on the on the web and stuf so that means there's a need for content to be more than one place more than in your digital magazine right in net sowie in serial places even within a website in its flight around on a website in different paths and so on so I think like a more complex content requirements thing is a driver, but also of the very nature of everything is turning in to night by that you can choice plugin to somewhere make systems talk to eachother one of one their whole hole api driven thing is also driving this I think the composer. 
Ashley: Als wir am big bang the digital transformation and the content of people and to access content from a markt from from a pc browser from a ipad from from a tablet from my science a new requirements on what's the phone what's the channel that I can in order present the concepts with my enduser so that I think will come back to the hole content peace i. Exactly that is things we jetzt about early our own so star of with headless CMS content Management system. So What's the big deal? What's the handle? SMS is the first question. And the second question stick with the first question first. 
Knut: Hedley Ja. Alias What's up with lags of head looking head of. 
Ashley: Violence prevention write. 
Knut: Themes many of you know already. But it's short for content management system. Interesting things we are probably more web publishing systems. There's a lot of content management deal, but you stick what content is don just stick the content into them and I are able to put it out on a web right so many people wordpress I think free present of the web is run by on world press and if we have us world press we have a dashboard in your browser where you can copy paste your content type zum times hit publish word pass host php code das biz das out zu html on a website not like the common mental model for cms in kanal computer, computer lingo when we talk about heads we are talking about it have a graphic interface that we can interactive and I have been able to figure out hy actual coinbase term, but for some reason soon someone at some point designed what if we didn't actually have like a this thing das machine at switch out in the cms, but only apps that we could konsum else were by another machine that work and that would be headless because you have all of the content management and all of staff going on, but no way to actually render the content in a way that can be presentation were so that's it. 
Ashley: Es sei denn It's content management with the focus on content and no content and rendering slash display. 
Knut: Exactly is no code actually just just contact information feed right. Äh. 
Ashley: Ja. Ist of my head of this? Okay, so I have I have the consent in my body then extract their content from from the headless system what's what's the technology of the way that I can display the content to see my my house. 
Knut: Ja to the way to interface with other applications is through api and I by basic means application programming interface right. It's its a way for for developers. To the good health of a list and hold data or your content. So here to expose those on you all right. We can I like to browser and it returns Tom kane of like a jason list or an example if you're really on lucky and take that into whatever front you use or if you are using. If you are making in apple app or a android whatever it is most called programming frameworks are able to deal with this lists was. 
Ashley: Apis give me the access to the to the content in let's play by my subject matter my ass development my android developer can konzentrat on using using his technologies all the choice in order to render and display with. 
Knut: The daily data pence on what actually is baked in to that api. Right and good. 
Ashley: Okay. Okay. 
Knut: Ja. I just i just edit I pretty have Typekit not to last. But ja. 
Ashley: Okay. Okay. Okay. So. I have I have my head of this api. But let's I had a old cms old world press That's it is true whatever we can I just at an API CMS System. Google Kern. Okay. 
Knut: Ja. 
Ashley: Aha. So, so is not a choice. If I have to buy a new hadley seems if I want to see the deep couple of the the content from from the rendering I can do it to pudding an api und inexistent CMS system. 
Knut: Ja, on this is a interesting thing as as we will touch on times for this conversation I suspekt is that hallo seems well, that's kino, not not the interesting part because as you say like the the old die mono classic cms has to person as well wordpress talk on a graft kuala by the world press and I get all of those benefits of a halos seems to see in the marketing for the old seems is that we also have the app the best of god everything so used to you things and go to the hell thing is a amateur and who knows what they are up to right so, so yeah. I think ja you can totally have apps für for old semesters Get pride much a lot of the same things. Das tut der some difference if you look at the market and the wonders not always a hali seems will be a host solution so that means a day of everything you don't have to worry about a database. You login to a webbrowser. You have your kollek dashboard of things. You can come on. Click and drag your content models and so on this points and I don't worry about scaling and like accept what what you have to you right. But you are you to see you have to host where you have to them and so on some of them, also statt for you, but to a price. So might also be kein of a difference a lot of thing is that hell issue must have it's easy to get started and I do they are often better integrated towards the end of front and we are used to using today so something like there might be better experience as we sei with with hell masses in some cases. 
Ashley: Genitive example of Headless memes the people of the world press a drupal the more of them ist eine because there is on the people have image so what what happened in terms of heat handles. Wenn das etwas dms wird innerhalb des image have die head with it development, so on the marketplace in terms of the way to the marketplace. 
Knut: Ja so, so I think they have been a round for almost than years now the most common one's content full is one of the been connect on the market the long ist is one of the most missed of others pris me and dato seems und strawberry and story black fabienne and sons of it good to hell org there is cool like a bunch of them. Okay. Ja. You can get lost okay. 
Ashley: Choice for people look at the voice choice an hearing from you are a a majority there are you welcome in in the second. Consent consent consent so smart when you need a the people needs people developers as I marketing is product I need a think about the way they structure their consent and all the question either with a handle cms or without a headless cms watch What's the the content driver. 
Knut: Your kollek printing at the crux of the other now because they don't actually need to so what a lot of the hell masses down is to pre damage trend re create the editorial experience of the old se meters so if look at the marketing again the old team as you don't get connect preview with is new hell because it's the touch is the get well we are in control of the year the connectivity presentation layer generator preview for you before you actually published the thing right on that was can looking for will, but now like the hell greek experience and I can call it preview and do it or they have actual so started to connect experiment with kolleg in inline page with civic editing it's like to know it's the targeted. But you can bring your front and in and you can connect feed data into it an operations as well so it's to see these things move, but they are pretty focus on the idea of publishing a website still and soap logging in to hell as is the same we have the fields and anbieter was SEO und Slogans code of the same of frances that you recognition from traditional heads semesters even store time in to your rich tucson stuff so you get html out of the api and that really in your react front and the whatever so this still a lot of like the same a options going on and I am head I am I'm going to where this right to so. 
Ashley: Halbzeit so he. Where is the difference? 
Knut: Exactly where is this difference it? We have the two and this is this is not going to be a product page but. IT goes to connect philosophy of how we should think about digital content in in this des age whatever and the weston we made sunday was hello seems like to quite all of these a simpsons and stuck html or markdown in your eyes and when i got them die audio seite was clarke not ideal like you can threat content a state of which was we feed was the promise so making sent david didn't go about making of hello seems we want about making as system for structure content that is you think about content and do not think about the content marketing. It's actually express the reality of you to have you are a ecommerce it include convenience product disruption and out of things and if you think about it way you get much more out of it. You are able to do very cool things that van powers marketing so example being able son of the newsletter and be super share that all of the product names and prices are actually correct without having to copy paste it all over the place right things of this is possible if you think about content not as you are website. But this is our world express in a dual format. And we can I composite ways. 
Ashley: Es sei, dass sie die I have my I have my consent this data I have a single source to have a single source of this is a copy and paste areas and then I have the power to see you to use this content your example for a newsletter or for website or all for a blog and what ever is. But always the content is coming from the same place to the content management system. So you have the power of you using you and developer how to pass that content on tour and user without about you and we have a good the one of the price list. Ja. Okay. Okay. Okay. IS becoming clear. 
Knut: Also you can bring this can of thinking to you traditional and hellas as well in the Drupal world connect thinking taking this structure content approach this is more common. Because can you for this for that however you will always find this website a champions in in this. 
Ashley: Hm. So. Can you give some example so projects you companies, but example of projects have okay take in the paradise shift words structure content and then using a atlas handles seems to render display that the content any cool good example of companies. 
Knut: So music for example we have a bunch. We have to you really cool things so take one of the lord just like a quick service führt restaurant chains, which is not a clown to date, take all of their many items all over the thing is the variations over many items and or of things all the restaurants with their locations and exceptions and and what not on all of the marketing stuff like campaign as the one day stick it in two to a curtain system that I am present thing. Dundee integrated color back office systems or able to come like argument those many items with slogans because it's super important agents follow the manual items crack play right to you don't you can't actually it. Dann they have like this api to be call to the burger graff, but I like the king query all of this stuff and bring it out to their website of course, but also ups and tasks und so fort and that shows you like translate your your organization all reality connect your thing and structure content and were able to leverage that in super interesting, was? Okay. Ja. 
Ashley: Firma Developer Perspektive hätte. Es hätte CMS IPs seit mehr als für everything out there soll is the other any specific challenges for a developer zu use the apis of the headless cms exposes or is it in codes. Just another api do not fits all, but in the other any specific difficult things that developers need to think about when using Headless cms hab's. 
Knut: Ja so I guess und accounts so going from a more traditional seems to hell seems I think the traditional seems have your back up with more because they know more like it is it's a simple model like the if you know about the presentation and everything in the universe you are able to see across and so on right so when you front and from the backend like the back in the know what happens in front so we have to take internal thinking is and always supported and we have to watch for a link break page small norly problems that you not think of before you are there the thing seat four making of website usual with us home of framework in a has been a lot of the great in the framework sehen all as well so also sehr that different frameworks in Kombination with new hosting solutions like notify and one have to take care more of those konzerns like they were like don't build your sieht have to something, that's breaking and I will try to two most mother of the things before it goes on a web ja I think it's a bit more to do you know that mit get out of the box with head oder traditional cms, but those close the gaps things as well going forward within the world. It's interesting because I have a lot of talk about this. But like the how to apps look is different how intentional the by the making of the apis so often when I go on the competitive journey exploration in look Oh you have so much kraft coming out of your alibi is a lot of and necessary things I have to deal with the content is a actually if it in a graff could be ist super need to have to kill drill down a lot of times access to do what I want and I can't actually the sieht the shape of this data that I want of course with sunday. But it's so always awesome. It's an api because you have to do where things hit zum Ha. If you are using react in jacket that in html and you can't do something with it or you have to the series age of time doing that so ja different sind. 
Ashley: Development development challenges We are things to get a szenario szenario I've build over the last ten years also my whole website experience on on Drupal I take it is it example is if I came to the choice. Okay. You could have a perisic news safe I was fasst with the good old post myself the question to are my great my day of my great is the right where you correct I mike great my day to from drupal into a system and from scratch to I make a decision there are the api is that drupal I have or of me and continued and that part there is there you're easy questions make up, but but audi is or make does type of decision stick good and that the way that the traditional cms is a loving was is make a bold bold step by step to a headline cms. 
Knut: Ja, ähm. I would try not to say it the pence of course it does right out. Ja, I know so with the Paul. I guess you have a self hosting situation riot and and me in. Like your website much traffic and so on just seat on a server and book on if you have to kill I want to go on the waters without your head unter it to just kolleg install to drupal graph civil plugin whatever it is and on an connecting it to you front and framework you want to learn something I think that's the way to know it. It's interesting with the migration thing and I think migration is a is a know keyword for it because sometimes we get connected unser question How do they are migrant my word press website and me ja kern, but probably you take the opportunity structure your content und bring the same content over and out is that is a bit of work that might be choice you might be able to script son of that might be like. Hier im Internet ist for two weeks manual do the operation next year might be and I that you knows right. But but you are you want to get to take the opportunity you think your content reality right so that's work, but we think its worse ja. 
Ashley: The content them keep coming out over and over again so it's not is a cms a better than cms be it's more the thinking about the structure content the power of structure content and as we said before that single single source of a single source of source I get you y why my great one structure from my old system into a new system day you don't gain anything that's the question take back think about the content structure use content because of the new channels and digital transformation so. 
Knut: Es like we have database for viral and leader of this is a great for work. Well we can do a lot of interesting things wittern for some reason. Wann kommst du? Content? We have been able to bring database of frances. Right. If you can make you for a article and I get a article back in the set so I think unique yourself like what would I do? If I could actually carry my content ways and shape connect outcome. And so what? What opportunities is with me? Dann kann ich find a system that common sagen. Aber think like that instead because it's it's really about connected technology right to you want to make you can make it I know how. 
Ashley: I want explore I think about the way that I can see. Let's go back to the developer pace We talk about the API is and you. Home of things developers need to think about so of it developer wants to questions the first developer wants to understand more about a world from the point of no hosting is the api all the points is it places where a developer can go to have a look and to get the what I want. Hättest CMS apis it is the community there are the resources out there are a quick stars and so on the community aspect. 
Knut: Dass das so much because. IT I think its people a good time in a way to be because the way all of this is our souls, wo immer es, but like that we are at a lot of the time the way we do marketing and for the developer alliance is by making educational content. ITS by how you see you think about that this is used to have connected to the popular technologies and frameworks device we will tell you and we will actually pay to go to go to show up in the search results. To tell you these things. So there's no problem of getting too tutorials and guides and what not anwender like try to actually you. But but you are all to know that that's wonderful trying to do of course to use surfing. What is this? That's the thing, but but but the most of education control i c alter as you correct and so. Es search for hali cms ago probably or how to hell as I know but you. 
Ashley: Know what I am hearing from you is this des enough developer resources out there somebody who wants to go on understand these things work and what they don't worry this resources. Ja, it's if I have recep when when I was thinking about this this podcast. I had Headless cms in my mind and and technology is in the questions about apis light that but the key the key board across in in this podcast but think about the content the strukturiert content and you. The provokativ the provokative question is does a little seems of my proprium now is a technologie. But you think about other things when you are actually making to move on the migration peace that we talk to go to use really interesting and a lot of the people listening to the podcast will have learned a lot you need certain open water things and I am see you see the audience listing well will have a lot of things to think about the future of content and lovely. 
Knut: Hope so. 
Ashley: Great again. have a good day! 
Knut: Thanks for Inviting! 
Knut: Taktsoft Campus Podcast. Der Podcast für Software und IT Professionals. Im Taktsoft Campus Podcast beschäftigen wir uns mit einem breiten Themenspektrum, um euch zu helfen. Praxis Fragen zu Technologie, aber genauso Fragen zur Umsetzung, Prozessen oder Projektorganisation. Danke, dass ihr dabei wart. Euer Taktsoft Campus Podcast Team.